Oct 4, 2026 · 1h 8m
DOGE’s assault on government tests the value of expertise
Deep State Rebels v. Trump (with Michael Lewis)
The episode examines how politicized leadership and indiscriminate cuts can weaken public safety, tax compliance, institutional trust, and democratic accountability.
- 1DOGE’s effort to reduce spending became a broader campaign to seize and reshape federal institutions.
- 2Research at NIST and tax administration at the IRS show why seemingly mundane government functions matter.
- 3Rebuilding government requires understanding its purposes before cutting rules, staff, or institutions.
Don't miss
Lewis recounts how security chief Colin O’Brien tried to keep DOGE from taking over the U.S. Institute of Peace, turning institutional control into a physical confrontation.
The brief
Michael Lewis joins Jon Lovett to discuss Blockers, his account of federal employees resisting DOGE’s effort to seize and dismantle government institutions.
At the U.S. Institute of Peace, a dispute over control escalated into a physical struggle involving private security, federal agencies, police, weapons, and political pressure.
Lewis connects the campaign against government expertise to NIST’s fire research and the IRS, where weakened enforcement can erode voluntary tax compliance and public trust.
The conversation uses Chesterton’s Fence to argue that rules and institutions should be understood before they are removed, because their value may be invisible until gone.
Lewis and Lovett conclude that policymakers need a stronger story about explaining, repairing, and rebuilding government rather than simply attacking it.
Featuring
Internal Revenue Service
Howard LutnickBooks & mentions
Blockers: Rebels in the Deep State
Michael Lewis’s book expands the stories of federal employees resisting DOGE’s assault on government institutions.
The Fifth Risk
Lewis’s earlier book provides context on presidential transitions, political appointments, and the consequences of neglecting government expertise.
Listen to the full episode and explore every guest, topic, and moment on PodLume.