Oct 5, 2026 · 2h 16m
Ancient DNA turns extinction into an ecological question
Bringing Extinct Species Back to Life | Dr. Beth Shapiro
Biotechnology may help restore lost traits and rescue endangered species, but the episode asks who gets to decide when nature should be redesigned.
- 1Ancient DNA clarifies species boundaries while revealing how hybridization shaped human evolution.
- 2De-extinction aims to restore ecological functions and traits, not produce genetically identical copies of extinct animals.
- 3Gene editing and cloning could aid conservation, but releases require ecological modeling, regulation, and public consent.
Don't miss
Shapiro explains that the three dire wolf-like animals were created from gray wolf genomes using 20 edits, then studied without plans for breeding or rewilding.
The brief
Evolutionary biologist Beth Shapiro explains how ancient DNA has blurred species boundaries, from Neanderthal-human interbreeding to hybrids that remain biologically distinct.
The discussion reframes de-extinction: researchers are not rebuilding perfect mammoths, but engineering traits and ecological functions into living relatives.
Shapiro describes how Colossal used 20 edits in gray wolf genomes to produce dire wolf-like animals, which are being studied rather than prepared for release.
The same tools could rescue living species, including black-footed ferrets and northern quolls, by restoring genetic diversity or resistance to environmental threats.
Artificial wombs, ecosystem digital twins, gene drives, and human embryo editing widen the debate from technical possibility to public authority and unequal access.
What was said on this episode
37 statements · 25 positive · 5 negative · 7 neutral
Species categories are human concepts rather than biological necessities.
“biology doesn't care what species you are. Species is a a human concept.”
Listen at 3:51
Most people carry 2–5% Neanderthal DNA from ancient admixture.
“most people have somewhere between 2% and 5% of their DNA that is from this admixture event”
Listen at 10:32
Brown bears and polar bears can readily interbreed when their habitats overlap.
“Brown bears and polar bears diverged about half a million years ago, and we know that they can readily interbreed and do whenever they overlap in habitat.”
Listen at 17:45
Living humans collectively contain over 90%, possibly 95%, of the Neanderthal genome.
“we would put together more than 90%, possibly more than 95% of the Neanderthal genome just from people who are alive today.”
Listen at 23:41
Dinosaurs cannot be brought back because recoverable dinosaur DNA is unavailable.
“We can't bring a dinosaur back to life because we don't have dinosaur DNA.”
Listen at 32:39
DNA preserves longer in cold Arctic environments with rapid burial and freezing.
“DNA will preserve for longer in the cold Arctic, where things are rapidly buried in frozen dirt, and they stay that way for a million years”
Listen at 34:20
Restoring extinct ecological interactions can increase ecosystem robustness and resilience.
“by bringing back these key ecological interactions, we can make those ecosystems more robust and more resilient”
Listen at 35:59
De-extinction tools can modify living species’ genomes to reduce extinction risk.
“all of the tools that we are developing for de-extinction are the same tools that we can use to use synthetic biology to modify the genomes of living species and help them avoid becoming extinct.”
Listen at 39:49
Centrifugation can separate sperm based on X- versus Y-chromosome size.
“you can centrifuge them, and because they're smaller, they sort out.”
Listen at 47:09
Cloning from somatic cells allows researchers to know the resulting animal’s sex.
“you can use cloning like we are at Colossal, and like we're thinking about in synthetic biology, where you actually know the sex because you're starting with an actual somatic cell”
Listen at 47:27
The Asian elephant is the mammoth’s closest living relative.
“the closest living relative of a mammoth is an Asian elephant.”
Listen at 49:38
Mammoth and Asian elephant genomes are approximately 99% similar.
“They're about 99% similar.”
Listen at 51:42
Colossal focuses on mammoth-shared genetic differences from elephants rather than exact reconstruction.
“what we're doing is focusing on where all of those mammoths are the same as each other, but different from elephants”
Listen at 54:07
The planned mammoth will be an elephant engineered to live in mammoth-like habitats.
“bringing back a mammoth, which will be an elephant that is capable of living in the habitats that a mammoth lived in.”
Listen at 54:24
Colossal’s dire wolf-like animals contain 20 selected genetic edits.
“our dire wolves, they have 20 edits that we picked”
Listen at 56:42
Colossal engineered dire-wolf-associated changes into a gray wolf genome.
“we engineered those changes into a gray wolf genome to recreate the dire wolf.”
Listen at 56:57
Colossal does not plan to release its dire wolves into the wild.
“we're not planning on rewilding dire wolves”
Listen at 58:02
Colossal prevents its closely related dire wolves from breeding using hormones.
“No, they're too closely related. We're stopping them using hormones, so rather than castration.”
Listen at 1:00:38
Colossal’s dire wolves have reached at least approximately 120 pounds.
“they were at some point, they were at least like 120 pounds, which is big for a gray wolf.”
Listen at 1:01:37
Colossal plans to produce another dire wolf pack.
“We will have another pack so that hopefully they will all be born, more of them at the same time.”
Listen at 1:03:36
Reintroducing gray wolves to Yellowstone restored vegetation and altered river flow.
“putting the gray wolves back in Yellowstone cascaded all the way down that ecosystem ladder to changing the way the rivers were flowing because the plants were growing back now.”
Listen at 1:12:07
Engineering disease-resistant mosquitoes may be preferable to killing mosquitoes.
“Maybe engineer mosquitoes that they can't carry the disease rather than engineer the mosquitoes to be dead.”
Listen at 1:21:24
Gene drives could be deployed with appropriate safety measures and oversight.
“gene drives are an incredibly powerful way that we have at our fingertips, where, with the appropriate safety measures and care in place, we should think about how we might deploy these tools.”
Listen at 1:21:42
Gene drives can be designed to persist for a fixed number of generations.
“You can make a gene drive so it only lasts for a fixed number of generations”
Listen at 1:21:53
Rejecting conservation technologies accepts the consequences of inaction.
“If we say that those technologies are too risky, we are accepting the outcome of doing nothing, which is also a decision.”
Listen at 1:25:25
Baby KJ was cured of his genetic disease and is expected to live normally.
“he is cured of this disease and will live a normal life.”
Listen at 1:37:02
Species thriving today are those adapted to human-created ecological niches.
“the species that live today and thrive today are those that have figured out how best to do that in the niches that we have created for it.”
Listen at 1:38:11
The captive breeding program releases approximately 500 black-footed ferrets annually.
“every year they can release about 500 black-footed ferrets into the wild.”
Listen at 1:43:45
Elizabeth Ann was the first black-footed ferret cloned from 40-year-old tissue.
“Elizabeth Ann was the first clone of 40-year-old tissue.”
Listen at 1:45:07
A cloned black-footed ferret from the same line reproduced, producing potentially releasable offspring.
“that animal has reproduced and there were offspring from that that can be able to be introduced.”
Listen at 1:45:37
Genetic engineering could make black-footed ferrets resistant to plague.
“we could use the tools of synthetic biology, genetic engineering, to edit the genome of these black-footed ferrets and make them resistant to plague.”
Listen at 1:46:34
Digital twins of ecosystems are feasible in principle.
“I think this is totally within the realm of feasibility.”
Listen at 1:49:53
Human embryo gene editing for disease prevention will become commonplace within 3–5 years.
“I predict in probably 3 to 5 years, not 10, the technology that we were talking about earlier of, of mutating the HIV receptor, that sort of thing, will be very commonplace in the context of fertility.”
Listen at 1:50:59
A future pandemic could reveal genetic variants that make some people likely to die.
“One of the possible scenarios is that we have a pandemic, a crisis, and we learn that there are certain people who have a particular genetic variant that means that they will die.”
Listen at 1:51:52
Producing hundreds of mammoths would require alternatives to elephant pregnancies.
“if we're going to have hundreds of mammoths, we're not going to get there by having 100 Asian elephants pregnant for 22 months with, with mammoths.”
Listen at 1:55:21
Artificial womb technologies motivated by de-extinction will become feasible in the future.
“These are all technologies that are— will be feasible in the future that are motivated by de-extinction.”
Listen at 1:56:18
Colossal is pursuing de-extinction and conservation of living species simultaneously.
“we are doing both.”
Listen at 2:00:07
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Featuring
Beth Shapiro
woolly mammoth
Svante Pääbo
Tasmanian devilBooks & mentions
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